HW: read chapters twenty and twenty-one and locate a line that relates to one of the essential questions. Create your quotation sandwich and post it here. Make sure to include the essential question to which you are responding and the page number of your quotation. Feel free to add a question to your post or to comment on a classmate's post.
ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS
- Why does Holden seem so ambivalent about the adult world?
- Why does Holden fear or resist change?
- Why does Holden struggle to develop meaningful relationships with his family and peers?
SAMPLE POST:
Why does Holden seem so ambivalent about the adult world?
When describing the difference between what ads at Pencey promise and what the school is really like, Holden reveals how suspicious he is of the adult world . He doubts that "they do any more molding at Pencey than they do at any other school." (Salinger 2) Holden implies that schools do not make us who we are and might even give us a false impression of who we could or should become.
When Holden is talking to Phoebe and she asks him if he got kicked out he says, "I told you. They let us out early. They let the whole-" (Salinger 165). This shows that Holden doesn't like change because he would rather not anyone know he was kicked out and he wants to keep it from his sister. When she deducts that he was kicked out, he tells her not to tell their parents, again showing he doesn't like change.
ReplyDeleteHolden feels ambivalent about the adult world when he thinks about himself getting pneumonia and dying, which reminds him of Allie. He feels that people who are dead should be left alone and not buried in a cemetry with flowers. After the visitors place their flowers, they would "get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner - everybody except Allie" (Salinger 156). Holden opposes proper burial because he feels that the people who visit the graves will leave behind the dead person afterwards, and they are phonies.
ReplyDeleteWhile drunk, Holden walks in a park and then sits down on a bench to think about death - his own, and then Allie's. "When the weather's nice...my parents stick a bunch of flowers on old Allie's grave...I certainly don't enjoy seeing him in that crazy cemetery. Surrounded by dead guys and tombstones and all" (Salinger 155). Holden says "surrounded by dead guys", as if he isn't used to the fact that Allie is also one of those dead guys. He can't accept that Allie is in the past, and really misses him still. He's afraid of change, because that would mean leaving Allie behind.
ReplyDeleteHolden struggles to develop meaningful relationships with people even his family because he lies so often. He even lied to his sister. "I told you. They let us out early. They let the whole-" (Salinger 165). He can't even tell the truth to his own family never mind anyone else.
ReplyDeleteWhen holden said "it wasn't too far, and I wasn't tired or even drunk any more. It was just very cold and nobody around anywhere." (Salinger 157) I think that it implies that how he is feeling now and nobody is around him. He has some troubles to develop a meaningful relationship with his friends.
ReplyDeleteBecause Holden is afraid of/resists change, he struggles to develop meaningful relationships with others. Phoebe senses Holden got kicked out of Pencey and Holden says, "I told you. They let us out early. They let the whole-"(Salinger 165). Holden is afraid of change which causes him to lie to the people he loves. In addition, Holden can't develop strong relationships with others.
ReplyDeleteThroughout catcher in the rye holden has fought against confromity and fixated on flaws he sees in the adult world. " i hope to hell when i do die somebody has sense enough to dump me in the river or somthin. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery" Here Holden shows his distaste for how the adult world handles death and the way they fix up the body as if it is still a live. Holden shows some of the same rebellion here in wanting to be thrown in the river instead of having a regular funeral as he did when he talked about not wanting to fight in the war and sitting on the bomb instead.
ReplyDeleteHolden is afraid to face the changes in his life. While he's talking with Phoebe he won't face the fact that Phoebe knows he got kicked out. He keeps denying he got kicked out as shes continues to ask he says "who said I got kicked out? Nobody said I-" "you did.You did" she said. He than later says "I told you. They let us out ear,. They let the whole-" (165).
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden decides to go to the Central Park he starts to think about the death of Allie and reflects,"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it....I just wish he wasn't there" (Salinger 156). This quote demonstrates that Holden resists change because he is heartbroken. After the death of Allie, Holden decides not to go back to the cemetery because he fails to accept that his brother is dead and will be alienated without him.
ReplyDeleteHolden can't even tell the truth to his own family. He talks to Phoebe and she knows he has been kicked out of school, but he just keeps lying and says they got out early. It's his own sister (family) and he can't get the "courage" to even tell her. This is why he has trouble with relationships not only with friends but family as well.
ReplyDelete"I told you they let us out early" (165) Holden demonstrates that he cannot even tell the truth to his family members this means he won't be able to creat meaningful relationships with his peers
ReplyDeleteDucks Group:
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is in the bathroom at the bar he, "was crying and all. I don't know why, but I was. I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonely"(Salinger 153). This isn't the first time in the novel that Holden has felt this way. In comparison to the beginning of the novel, he's doing much worse. At the beginning of his journey, he spends most of his time paying attention to the phonies. Now, he's become so caught up with himself that he makes bad choices and realizes how alone he really is.
Phone call group: we think Holden's condition is worse because within the past few hours Holden has just plummeted. He got very drunk at a bar, he thinks about death and his funeral, he is walking around in the park at one in the morning. He really has it a low point and doesn't really know what to do next.
ReplyDeleteThe Hunting Hat Group: Holden has hit rock bottom. He is drunk and alone. He makes his way to Central Park and sits on a bench thinking about death. This however, is not the first time he has thought about it. Back at Pency after his fight with Stradlater he thinks about jumping out the window. He also thinks the same thing again at the hotel after the visit from Sunny and Maurice. There were other times as well through out the story but this is bottom because Holden is thinking about his own funeral and he has no one to turn to.
ReplyDeleteMuseums group
ReplyDeleteHolden's condition has gotten worse since the beginning of the novel. First, he's in a bar, and wants to talk to the singer, but "[the waiter] probably didn't even give her my message. People never give your message to anybody" (Salinger 149). Now, Holden is depressed because he can't talk to anyone, and he always thinks negative things like people don't give your message to anyone. Second, after getting drunk, he's in the bathroom, and says, "I was crying and all...I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonesome" (Salinger 153). Since leaving Pencey, he has been lonely and depressed, and now he's extremely drunk. Third, he's sitting on a bench thinking, "I thought I'd get pneumonia and die...I thought about the whole bunch of them sticking me in a goddam cemetery and all" (Salinger 154-155). He's so drunk and sick that he's thinking about his own funeral. Not even just, "I'm going to die", but "the whole bunch of them sticking me in a goddam cemetery."
When Holden decides to go to the Central Park he starts to think about the death of Allie and reflects,"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it....I just wish he wasn't there" (Salinger 156). This quote shows Holden is still resisting change. He doesn't want to go to his brothers grave because then it will settle a Upon him that allie is really gone and he's not going to be able to come back into his life.
ReplyDelete"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it....I just wish he wasn't there" (Salinger 156) this shows that Holden still doesn't like changes and without changes in your life you won't develop.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden returns home he sneaks into his brothers room to see Phoebe only to find that she is asleep. He does however see her notebook and the desk and reads it and, "It didn't take me long. I can read that kind of stuff, some kid's notebook Phoebes or anybody's, all day and all night long. Kid's notebooks kill me (161). This quote demonstrates how Holden finds pleasure in reflecting back on childhood, rather than looking to the future. He feels that kids are not phonies, and like Phoebe, write amd say exaclty what they feel.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden goes home and sees Phoebe he cannot even find the courage tell her why he is home early so instead he tells her that, "They let us out early" (Salinger 165). This is one of the reasons Holden struggles to develop meaningful relations ships with people. He cannot even tell the truth to his own sister and family is the most important people in ones life. He can not create meaningful relationships if he is lying all the time.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is getting drunk in the bar, he decides to go out to the phone to call Jane. "But when I got inside this phone booth, I wasn't much in the mood any more to give old Jane a buzz" (150). Holden doesn't call Jane because he is afraid of what she will say when he does call her, because he fears and resists change, and he's worried that she will have changed.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is by the lagoon, he says, "I kept worrying that I was getting pneumonia, with all those hunks of ice in my hair, and that I was going to die" (Salinger 155). The fact that Holden is so incredibly worried that he will die for such a small reason shows his resistance to change. Holden is so afraid of change that even the change of having wet hair is deathly frightening to him.
ReplyDeleteWhen Hold is wondering around, he decides to go to the park with the ducks that he keeps talking about. He says that he "didn't know if they were around or not " (Salinger 153). This represents his fear of change, all he wants is to find out where the ducks go every winter. And if he finds that out, something that never changes, he can finally relax about it. Change is something that Holden doesn't like at all, it can make him anxious and it will freak him out. So until he finds out where they go, he will continue to be nervous about it.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden finally goes home, he goes to see his sister Phoebe. He can't find the courage to tell her that he got kicked out of school, so he instead tells her that "They let us out early"(Salinger 165). This shows how Holden could struggle to develop meaningful relationships with others because he cannot even tell the truth to his own sister, whom he seems very close with. If he lies all the time, especially to his own family, then it will be hard for him to develop meaningful relationships.
ReplyDeleteHolden has issues connecting with peers. For example, one of the few times he takes someone up on an offer to make plans for the future, he's drunk. On page 151, he accepts Sally's offer to "Come over Christmas Eve... [and] trimma goddamn tree". He's attempting to bond somewhat with a peer, but it took complete inebriation.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden decides to go to Central Park, he starts to think about the death of Allie and reflects,"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it....I just wish he wasn't there" (Salinger 156). This quote clearly shows that Holden resists change because he is heartbroken. After the death of Allie, Holden decides not to go back to the cemetery because he fails to accept that his brother is dead. Holden feels isolated and alienated without his brother.
ReplyDeleteHolden's fear of change is represented clearly when he says, ,"All the visitors could get in their cars and turn on their radios and all and then go someplace nice for dinner- everybody except Allie. I couldn't stand it....I just wish he wasn't there" (Salinger 156). This shows he resists change when because he doesn't understand how people can move on after someone dies as if it never happened
ReplyDeleteHolden is unarguably in worse shape than he started by the time chapters 20-21 happen. For example, on page 154, he tells us how he "must've been drunker than [he] thought. [He] kept walking and walking". He's completely plastered in the middle of the night, walking around in the freezing cold. Later on, he starts questioning his own funeral on page 154 when he gets upset at the thought of "them sticking [him] in a goddamn cemetery and all, with [his] name on this tombstone and all. Surrounded by dead guys". He's thinking about his own funeral, in a negative light, at the young age of 16. Finally, on page 165, after Pheobe asks Holden if he got kicked out, he says "I told you. They let us out early..." He talked so much about how much he loved his little sister, yet here he is lying to her about school. These three events are all testament to how he is worse off currently compared to the beginning of the novel.
ReplyDeleteMuseums group.
DeleteDucks Group:
ReplyDeleteHolden's condition is worse than when he was at Pencey. He's become a lot more depressed and careless, he keeps saying "I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonesome" (Salinger 153). He has no one and every time he tries to reach out to people, it never goes well. He's even thought about just killing himself, but he "knew she wouldn't let old Phoebe come to my goddamn funeral because she was only a little kid" (Salinger 155). He knows his mom wouldn't let Phoebe go to his funeral, and Phoebe is one of the only people who matter to him. Phoebe is what's keeping him from killing himself. He even says that "She likes me a lot. I mean she's quite fond of me. She really is" (Salinger 156). He loves Phoebe, and Phoebe loves him, he misses her and values their relationship.
Phone Calls Group - We believe that Holden's situation isn't better or worse than what he started with when he was about to leave Pencey. He was in a poor situation when he left, and is still in a poor situation now. When at the bar, he got drunk and had suicidal thoughts and thoughts of dying. He dropped Phoebe's record and he was very sad. He picked up the pieces of the record, which can be viewed as a metaphor to show how is life is in pieces too. Overall, his life is just bad, but not worse than before
ReplyDeleteHunting Hat - Ben, Danny, Ewen, & Paul
ReplyDeleteHolden's condition has worsened due to the lack of meaningful human interaction and physical setbacks. For instance, when Holden wets his hair and won't stop thinking about how cold he is, it demonstrates that the quality of his physical state has declined. Additionally, when Holden is drunk, he calls Sally in the middle of the night and talks about trimming the tree. However, the two do not have a meaningful conversation, showing how Holden has become disconnected from the outside world. When Phoebe realizes that Holden has been kicked out of Pencey, she separates herself from him. This shows how Holden's relationship with Phoebe has deteriorated.
Sa-Sa & Sara T. Holdens condition had gotten worse from when he left Pencey to his current state. When Holden is in the bar he states that, "When I finally got down off the radiated I was crying and all. I don't know why but I was. I guess it was because I was feeling so damn depressed and lonesome" (153). This shows how Holden is at a very low point in his life, and doesn't motivation to do do anything. When Holden is walking the streets late a night he is very cold and he,"started thinking how old Phoebe would feel if [he] got pneumonia and died" (Salinger 158). Clearly Holden cannot be in a good state of mind if ooctureing his own funeral is what cheers him up. Holdens condition has worsend, because he feels more alone and depressed.
ReplyDelete