 |
| "You ever pass by the lagoon in Central Park?" |
ESSENTIAL QUESTIONS
- Why does Holden seem so ambivalent about the adult world?
- Why does Holden fear or resist change?
- Why does Holden struggle to develop meaningful relationships with his family and peers?
SAMPLE POST:
Why does Holden seem so ambivalent about the adult world?
When describing the difference between what ads at Pencey promise and what the school is really like, Holden reveals how suspicious he is of the adult world . He doubts that "they do any more molding at Pencey than they do at any other school." (Salinger 2) Holden implies that schools do not make us who we are and might even give us a false impression of who we could or should become.
Holden has trouble developing meaningful relationships because he seems to be to sensitive for example on page (75), "it makes me so depressed I can't stand it" this is just because some girls went a very long distance to see a concert.
ReplyDeleteHolden is so ambivalent of the adult world because he tries to act like an adult. When he acts like one if front of other adults, they dismiss him because he's so young. In the Lavender Club in his hotel, he tries flirting with these 30 year old women. When he asks, "Would any of you girls care to dance?" (Salinger 70) they all laugh at him because they can tell he is just a kid. Holden doesn't understand it, so he keeps perusing until one of them dances with him, who ends up ignoring him because he's a little kid. Being unable to see that he's still a kid shows how he ambivalent of the adult world.
ReplyDeleteHolden seems so ambivalent about the adult world because he wants to act like a grown up however when he's treated by his age he gets upset. While he was at the bar he orders a scotch and soda however he gets caught due to the fact that he looks young and all and says "they lose their jobs if they get caught selling to a minor. I'm a god damn minor" (70). Holden seems to always be trying to fit into the adult world when he even knows he's a minor.
ReplyDeleteHolden is at the Edmund Hotel lobby, and sitting in a chair thinking. "Anyway, that's what I was thinking about...Old Jane. Every time I got to the part about her out with Stradlater in that damn Ed Banky's car, it almost drove me crazy" (Salinger 80). Holden won't admit to himself that he likes Jane, a lot. He keeps talking about Jane, especially her with Stradlater, but he fears that he won't have any chance with her, and that she might not remember him or something. She has probably changed a lot since he last saw her.
ReplyDeleteHolden has a difficult time developing meaningful relationships because he can't be honest with himself or others. When Holden meets three girls at the hotel, he tells them, "my name was Jim Steele"(Salinger 73). Holden also won't admit that he likes Jane. Every time he meets someone new, he acts like a totally different person and this excludes him from real friendships. Holden also doesn't like getting attached to people so he tries to not think about anyone.
ReplyDeleteHolden visibily shows ambivalence toward the adult world when he is at the hotel nightclub. With clear annoyance Holden tells the girl he dances with," You're a very good conversationalist" (Salinger 72). Holden shows ambivalence toward the adult world because he has poor experiences with adults or people that are older than him that make them seem worse that what they really are. One could argue that Holden has a base problem with accepting the fact that people aren't perfect. But this is also a general statement that can be applicable to most teens.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is in the hotel, he considers calling his younger sister Phoebe, but then decides not to, because he fears his parents would answer, "They'd know it was me. My mother always knows it's me. She's psychic. But I certainly wouldn't have minded shooting the crap with old Phoebe for a while" It seems as though the inly person Holden has a real connection with is his younger siblings, most likely, because the they haven't grown up, and had the chance to disapoint him as adults. This shows his ambivalence towards the adult world, because he doesn't feel like he is able to connect with adults.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is eyeing the three ladies at the table over that start giggling and he thinks, "they probably thought I was too young to give anybody the once over. That annoyed the hell out of me-". This shows that it's not only that Holden doesn't have relationships with the adult world, but also he thinks the adult world does not want to have relationships with him.
ReplyDeleteHolden was really good friends with Jane before, but now he can't even get himself to talk to her or call her and keeps making up excuses about how her mother would answer. He's always complaining about Stradlater and her in Ed Banky's car and he still never calls her and talks to her even though they were good friends before.
ReplyDeleteAfter Holden leaves the Lavender room in the hotel, he says "There isn't any night club in the world where you can sit in for a long time unless you can at least buy some liquor and get drunk" (76). Holden is ambivalent about the adult world because of little things like the fact that you have to be drunk to have a good time when you're an adult.
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons Holden feels ambivalent about the adult world is because he has already set his own expectations as an adult's. Bernice, the blonde woman who danced with Holden questions him how old he is. He writes, "That annoyed me, for some reason. 'Oh, Christ, Don't spoil it,' I said. 'I'm twelve, for Chrissake. I'm big for my age'" (Salinger 72). This example shows that Holden's belief that he's already an adult is so strong that he gets annoyed when someone asks his age. Holden has completely forgotten that he is much younger than Bernace.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is dancing with Bernice, he says, "she really was a moron. But what a dancer. I could hardly stop myself from sort of giving her a kiss on the top of her dopey head" (Salinger 71). Bernice serves as a symbol for the adult world in both a positive and negative way. She is a good dancer, representing the parts of the adult world that Holden finds exciting. However, she is also fairly dimwitted, representing the part of the adult world that Holden deems boring and phony. This two-pronged view of adulthood shows Holden's ambivalence toward the subject.
ReplyDeleteHolden has tried his hardest to avoid having nay meaningfull relationships with anyone, he lies to ,and criticizes almost all of the people he knows elminating any chance of his getting to know them. Jane was the exception to this. "I know old Jane like a book", "I really got to know her quite intamately" This passage shows his relationship with Jane and how much he cherishes it. One of the reasons why Holden holds it so dear and can't stop thinking about Jane may be because how little other real relationships he has with people. Because of that he holds dear the few he does have and continues to think about those and the past instead of trying to make new relationships and thinking about the now.
ReplyDeleteHolden has a generally negative view of the adult world, and I think it's because he still seems to idolize a childish lifestyle and innocence. For example, he talks about his little sister Pheobe. On page 68, he talks for a while about her, and finishes it off by telling us that she "still kills everybody-everybody with any sense, anyways". He thinks one of her best traits is her innocence and childlike demeanor, and he can't let go of his idolization of those characteristics, so of course he'd feel ambiguous about the adult world.
ReplyDeleteAfter Holden leaves the Lavender room in the hotel, he says "There isn't any night club in the world where you can sit in for a long time unless you can at least buy some liquor and get drunk" (76). Holden is ambivalent to the adult world because he thinks he has to party and get drunk to have a good time.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden goes to the Lavender Room in the Hotel, he encounters three older women. After he asked Bernice to dance with him, she asks how old he was. Annoyed, Holden quickly responds with, "'Oh, Christ. Don't Spoil it,' I said. 'I'm twelve, for Christsake. I'm big for my age"(Salinger 72). This scene demonstrates how Holden negative view of adults due to the fact that he finds her "dopey"(unintelligent) and is annoyed when older people ask how old he is. However he also finds her appealing as he states, "She knocked me out. I mean it. I was half in love with her by the time we sat down"(Salinger 73). Holden clearly demonstrates to the reader his ambivalence to the Adult World by possessing contradicting views on Bernice.
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden is talking about Jane he says, "...I felt this hand on the back of my neck, and it was Jane's" (Salinger 79). This quote shows Holden doesn't like change because rather than think of this as something casual, he sees it as something more than that, as something special. Though this isn't bad, Holden wants to hang on with what he had with Jane and doesn't want that to slip away.
ReplyDelete"This isn't any night club in the world where you can sit in for a long time unless you can buy some liquor and get drunk" this shows that he is ambivalent to the adult world cause he think that to have fun and live a good luck you have to go to parties and get drunk and stuff.
ReplyDeleteHolden's struggle to develop meaningful relationships is demonstrated when he says, "I'd just about broken her heart- I really had. I was sorry as hell I'd kidded her. Some people you shouldn't kid, even if they deserve it"(74). He struggles to develop meaningful relationships because he doesn't know when to joke around and that can get him into serious trouble eventually
ReplyDeleteMuseums group:
ReplyDeleteHolden values details and the little things in life. When he talks about his sister, he's very specific about the parts of the movie that his sister memorized. And when he's mentioning Jane, he specifically remembers that her tear dropped onto the red square of the checkerboard, and he often mention little things like this.
Page 67 for the movie, page 78 for the teardrops.
DeleteThis could also be a detriment to Holden because he might end up overreacting when the details aren't perfect, and he might not be sure how much of the details he should filter out.
Ducks group: You can tell Holden really values his family when he talks about his sister and says, "You should see her. You never saw a little kid so pretty, and smart in your whole life. She was really smart" (Pg 67 Salinger). In this passage Holden is calling the reader out. It's like he's trying to prove to the reader that his little sister is something special. If Holden didn't value or care about his family he wouldn't have bothered to say anything nice about them.
ReplyDeleteTaxicab group: Holden values innocence because he talks about his siblings a lot and wants to talk to them. While recalling memories with his sister Phoebe he thinks about how, "She killed Allie, too. I mean he liked her, too. She ten now, and not such a tiny little kid anymore, but she still kills everybody-everybody with sense, anyway. (Salinger 68) This shows how Holden values innocence and youth, because he describes how his younger sister brings everyone joy, and even though she is growing up she still has her innocence, and Holden envies and admires it.
ReplyDelete-Sa-Sa G., Sarah T., Jasper, Mateo
Holden values innocence because he prefers people who are not affected by the dullness and corruption of the adult world. One example is when he describes his sister holding up her finger during The 39 Steps. This childlike action fascinates Holden because she is uneffected by society's expectations, showing that she acts freely. Holden appreciates that she is not tied down by the rules and expectations of adults.
ReplyDeleteBen, Danny, Ewen, Paul - Hunting Hat Group
When holden was like It's immaterial to me," she said. "Hey—how old are you, anyhow?"That annoyed me, for some reason. "Oh, Christ. Don't spoil it," I said. "I'm twelve, for Chris sake. I'm big for my age." (10.39-40) it shows that since he keeps lying and he has dissatisfaction about the adult world. It appears as lying
ReplyDeleteDucks: Holden values memories. When he talks about Jane, he remembers taking her to the movies and playing checkers with her. When he tells us about Pheobe, he remembers taking her to the park on sundays and she'd wear white gloves and look like a lady (Salinger 68). He recalls specific and important details about time he spent with people he loves.
ReplyDeleteThe Hunting Hat Group:
ReplyDeleteThe point made within these two sections is valuing past relationships. Holden has trouble making new relationships because he is to focused on the ones in the past. Both explanations start off with little detail but branch off into full pages of a memory. For example, he starts off describing his sister by saying, "you should see her. you never saw a little kid so pretty and smart in your whole life"(67). But it progresses to what her favorite movies are and what she writes about. The past is holng him back.
Holden values people who can have a good conversation and aren't 'phonies'. On page 79 he says how he could hold hands with Jane without it being awkward. This shows why he likes Jane, because she isn't a 'phony' and doesn't make things weird. On page 67, Holden says how "if you tell old Phoebe something, she knows exactly what the hell you're talking about". This shows how he values people who are straightforward in a conversation.
ReplyDeleteHolden values people he's known for a while including his family and friends. He doesn't try to get to know other people he just lies to them and doesn't bother trying to get to know them much. " all of a sudden, on my way out to the lobby, I got old Jane Gallagher on the brain again. I got her on,and I couldn't get her off" (76). Holden remembers his friends and family that he's made memories with, he doesn't bother thinking about the bad ones he's made with them
ReplyDeleteHolden has trouble developing meaningful relationships with people because he doesn't understand signals people are giving him. For instance, when he's finished dancing with the girl from the lavender room, he says, "they didn't invite me to sit down at their table - mostly because they were too ignorant - but I sat down anyway." (Salinger 73) Holden doesn't understand that they don't want him to be there, and that they're trying to get rid of him. He just thinks they're stupid and that they "kept looking all around the goddamn room, like as if they expected a flock of goddamn movie stars to come in any minute." He just doesn't get that they want him to leave, and keeps trying to talk to them. He always tries to talk to people that he clearly doesn't have a future with, and the ones he does, he calls them 'phonies'.
ReplyDelete